Raise the Hammer

A very illuminating analysis! Likely to be correct on many points indeed. Given that he's probably a socialist to some degree, I'm left to wonder if Dr. Shoup would have the stomach (and the intellectual honesty) to apply his flawless logic to healthcare economics. Agenda driven research, no matter how good, is usually a bad idea.

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You should next do an article entitled "The high cost of not being dead"

This would demonstrate unequivocally that respiration is the source of all expenses with the notable exception of opportunity cost (which would be infinite).

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If my downtown area started charging for parking, the next downtown (5 miles away) would get our business... charging for pakring would have to be implemented in unison across all cities of an urban area.

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You write that parking space in Hamilton Ontario costs "six dollars per square foot per month - an order of magnitude lower than the equivalent monthly cost for a square foot of building space."

In what city does office space go for $6/foot per month? It is about $2 per sf per month in downtown San Francisco right now, and that's in American dollars (see http://www.cityfeet.com/Search/Lease/SearchResults.aspx?PartnerPath=&SearchType=byL&GeoId=295&GeoName=%26nbsp%3b%26nbsp%3b-Financial+District&PropertyType=1&PropertyTypeName=Office&SizeMin=0&SizeMax=1000000000000&SizeMinName=0&SizeMaxName=No+Limit&LocationId=254).

Your statement also implies a 500-sq-foot studio apartment would rent for "an order of magnitude" more than $3,000 per month in Hamilton -- wow, expensive town!

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Well, bj, unless the parking is quite expensive, then they'd be idiots. Driving 10 extra miles (5 miles both ways) times $0.40/mile is $4.00 extra (ignoring the value of your time).

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I don't know where you're getting your lease rates from. Even in New York, office space can easily be had for less than $72/sq foot/yr. Perhaps you are confusing the commonly quoted price for office space as being a monthly rate, when it is a yearly rate. Certainly if one were to rent it out by the month, an unenclosed parking space at $72/ft^2/mo would be extremely expensive.

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John, you have strange math. My car gets 30 mpg average. Gas cost $3 per gallon. This come out to $0.10 per mile. Driving round trip of 10 mi will thus cost $1. If parking is $0.50 per hour, then I would break even in cost by staying where I went for 2 hrs.

Speaking of ignoring the value of time, driving is much faster than walking. I walk at about 4 mph, and can drive at about 40. In a hypothetical walk 1 mile vs. drive 10, the time required either way is the same.

Driving takes less effort and the same time, but costs about a dollar.

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"In what city does office space go for $6/foot per month..."

...whereas the article talks about "equivalent monthly cost for a square foot of **building space**"

The confusion is cleared when one realises that every sq.ft. of building space can be converted to potentially many sq.ft. of office space, depending on the allowable floor space index.

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Great article. I look forward to reading the book. Sorry that the previous commenters seem to be predisposed to rejecting ideas that they don't yet understand.

I saw a credible statement that a single parking space in a suburban office parking lot cost $1,000 per year. (It cost $1400 to build it, plus maintenance, and the lease cost of the land it sits on.) Coincidentally, that works out to the same price as the downtown parking garage fees that the companies are trying to avoid. It is nice to have the company paying the parking costs.

You see, cars (and the whole world that caters to cars) are a very expensive solution to our transportation needs. There are mountains of hidden costs. The subsidized costs hidden in government maintained roads is much higher. Search for "Cost of driving brochure" to see a pdf showing a TOTAL COST OF $1.19 PER MILE.

(To start: Divide a car's $20,000 price tag by 100,000 miles and you get 20 cents per mile just for paying for a car, its loan, and its maintenance. Gas at $3/gal and 30 mpg adds another 10 cents per mile.)

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Wow! I find it comical that so many people defend so strongly driving their cars for short distances! Amazing. Such practices contribute to pollution, global warming, and in an era of obesity, walking/cycling is such an obviously valuable activity. Let's support the development of walkable communities and better public transit! Those cities are way more fun to liven in than car-dependent cities--I guarantee it.

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That's an interesting way to stop spammers, LOL "What do you get when you divide 12 by 3"
anyways, on to the topic.
I own a towing company in Denver. I think it's a tremendous article and it has a lot of merit. We have a very successful light rail system all through downtown here. ALL of the parking is pay parking unless it is specifically for someones store. I have many of the accounts for towing for many of these lots. Don't pay? get towed. I end up with your car. It's obvious the idea is to get people out of their cars. I also think there is some rule here that if you buy property in the downtown matrix, you must agree to NOT build another parking lot or you cannot complete the sale.
This seems like a very logical way to deal with Arrogant American and their car.

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I find it interesting that the people who are harping the most about motorists are those who just can't afford a car. It's more about envy than environmentalism. Some of you guys talk like we live in a little village, where the doctor is around the corner, and the general store is up the street. When in real life the grocery store is six miles away, and your pannier bags only hold an oven roast and a bag of milk. And your doctor? He's in the high rise downtown. Yeah, let's walk there too. Who cares if it takes two hours to walk to go see your doctor for ten minutes. When you're unemployed, time is plentiful. Well, some of us work and thusly can afford a vehicle to help us make better use of the fewer minutes a day we have versus the hippies living in mom's basement blogging about how bad motorists are.

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Nice troll John.

I can afford a car but I choose not to own one because, let's see, (1) they consume non-renewable oil (2) they produce more than half the air pollution in our city (3) they produce greenhouse gases that are causing climate change (4) they are pushing our cities apart so that as you say the places you go get pushed apart to make room for all the damn cars.

It's a chicken and egg problem. When most people have a car we need to rebuild our cities so cars can fit, and the way we rebuild our cities means you need a car to get anywhere.

Sorry that your insecure ego is tied up in being able to afford a car and you can't see that connection. (See? it's easy to be an "armchair psychologist" John)

Maybe if you got out of your car and tried living in a real community--yes, they used to exist, they exist today, and there will be a lot more of them in the future--you'd see that lifes not about wrapping yourself in a big fat dildo with wheels but about placing yourself somewhere you can feel connected and meaningful and more fully human.

Nah never mind. Just turn on the 60'' TV you can afford because you're not a hippy living in mom's basement and drown it all out.

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Hi John,

I drive everywhere. I also own my own car and have a job too. And I sometimes, 'harp on about motorists' for RTH too. Amazing eh?!

Sorry to disappoint you mate.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, none of the RTH writers live in their Mums basements or dress like hippies(except Jason).

I was going to answer some of your points but I've just realized I can't be bothered.

Happy driving!

Ben

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You're good John! I don't comb my hair and I spend alot of time in the basement. Doing laundry for my kids mind you, but still.

Of course the rest of the time I'm a soccer mom who likes to "harp on about motorists" on RTH in between driving my minivan and walking to the store.

Anyone have a nice recipe for pie?

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is that you Dolbec??

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"Anyone have a nice recipe for pie?"

Wait until the peak of peach season this summer and pick up a bushel of ripe, local peaches. Wash and peel them, and cut them into smallish pieces (highly precise, my recipes).

For each four cups of peaches, mix in the following:

• 3/4 C brown sugar
• 1 C flour
• juice of 1/2 a lemon

Stir it together - not too vigorously or you'll break up the peaches - scoop into a good freezer bag, and stick in your freezer. (The more full your freezer is, the less energy it takes to keep your food cold.)

We usually do a half a dozen batches of pie mix and then slowly use them over the winter. By about March, pies made from this mix taste just like cream-sicles, especially when served hot with ice cream.

To make the crust:

2 C flour 1/2 tsp salt 1 C unsalted butter, softened * 2 T ice-cold water 1 large egg 1 T white vinegar

• You can substitute Crisco, which will make for a flakier crust, but I prefer butter because, well, it tastes buttery.

In a large mixing bowl, combine the flour and salt, and cut in the butter with two knives or one of those pastry butter cutter-inners.

In another small bowl, mix together the ice water, vinegar and egg. Then pour them into the flour/butter mix.

Stir just enough to combine them, but not too much, or else the dough will get stringy.

Take about half and roll onto a counter with liberal amounts of flour. Carefully slip this into your pie pan and cut off the overhanging pastry (but don't throw it out).

Then pour in your peach pie mix.

Finally, take the other half of the pastry, roll it out, and place it on top of the pie. Cut off the extra pastry again, and crimp the top and bottom together.

Poke a few holes into the top of the crust, and then bake, uncovered, in an oven at 375 degrees for about 45 minutes or until golden brown.

While the pie is baking, mix together the rest of your pastry and roll it out. Spread on some softened butter, then a thin coating of brown sugar, and finally a very thin coating of ground cinnamon.

Yes, you're making cinnamon rolls with the leftover pastry.

Roll the pastry up into a tube and cut it into sections. Bake them in a separate pan (one with raised sides - these puppies run) for about 20-25 minutes or until golden brown.

At this point, you're welcome to eat them as-is or drizzle them with an icing of your choice.

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Hey, John. You are making really baseless assumptions saying that the people who are harping the most about motorists are those who just can't afford a car, and that the harping is more about envy than environmentalism. Our annual household income is in excess of $120,000. We could easily afford a car, but we choose not to. It really is about making wise lifestyle choices. First off, when we went looking fo a home, our criteria included living somewhere where basic ameneties were within walking distance, and public transit was easily accessible. Coincidently, the housing in our area is drastically undervalued, and we purchased our beautiful century home at half the price of a house in the burbs. While we had initial trepidations about living in the downtown area (most media make it sound like it's a crime-ridden wasteland), four years after the move, we actually find our neighbourhood quieter and much more friendly that those of past suburban experiences. As an added bonus, we are saving huge chunks of cash by not making ourselves slaves to the automobile. It's incredible how a car can suck up so much cash every month - and most people allow it to drain their cash like they have no option. Well, you do. And John, because of the choice we made when buying our house, the doctor is around the corner, and the grocery store is up the street. And, my carbon footprint on this planet is much smaller than it used to be. And my wallet is thicker.

You have an extremely limited view of the world, John. Your obvious vindictive bias nearly caused me to laugh off your post, but I thought otherwise, because many buy into the false assumptions propogated in messages similar to yours. So instead, I share my story and encourage others to consider living downtown without a car is a viable option. Car-free living truly is care-free living.

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Just got home from riding my bike to work... we own a car but it sat in the drive today. as it does 2 or 3 days a week when I ride my bike or take the bus to work. We too have saved money, but not nearly as much as we could without a car. last time I checked it costs me around $8,000 a year to own my car (we're still leasing). However, since moving downtown 6 years ago (when gas was around 50c a litre) our monthly allotment for gas has gone down...not up. And we drive less km resulting in less wear and tear and (we hope) a longer life for our car once we buy it out after the lease ends. On top of all that, we are in the best physical shape of our lives with all the walking and biking we do....the Market, Locke South, James North, Hess Village, Jackson Square etc...is all within a 10-15 minute walk. We too lived in the suburbs previously and will simply never go back. Living downtown has been amazing.

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ooo. Thanks, Ryan. Clipped and saved for peach season.

You can always do half and half butter and shortening for your crust. I actually prefer cheaper no name shortenings. They seem to make a flakier crust. Higher water content, I think. Just don't forget to chill it first.

Now here's one for you courtesy of Hmag. Impress your friends by cooking with weeds while at the same time helping reduce the noxious garlic mustard that's killing our maple forests and turning our woodland edges into monocultures:

Garlic Mustard Pesto

3-4 cups small garlic mustard leaves (picked early spring) 1/3 c roasted seeds/nuts (I used pine nuts, walnuts would be nice too) 1/3 c olive oil 10 cloves garlic 1/4 c grated parmesan

Process all ingredients in food processor to desired consistency.

This is VERY garlicy. I had some tossed with pasta before choir practise. BIG mistake. They're still not speaking to me. Next time I'll toss in some parsley as well. Also nice on bruschetta mixed with mayo and a little lemon juice, but only to be shared with very close friends.

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I'm fascinated by the rather confused stream of commentary above...mostly on how people choose to address the arguement put forth by Shoup. Each of the above have picked one or two random facts his article to harp on as opposed to addressing the overarching issue. Cities have done a very poor job at planning for parking. I think what's ingenious these days are how people are turning to the web (naturally) for their own solutions in light of the city's lack of adequate planning. Www.parkingspots.com is one that comes to mind pretty quickly - a locator for non-traditional parking solutions at lower then average costs. Once again, consumers are stepping in to take over where municipal planners never fail to disappoint.

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After watching Obama's infomercial with Huckstorator supreme Clinton my BS radar is finely honed.

Donald Shoup is a tool manipulating very meager location-specific data and generalizing it not just across a city but across a city. He also fails to note that land saved from parking would not be green; It would be used for more construction further turning cities into canyons. Shoup also fails to realize that consumers will eschew downtowns for strip malls and that parking is the cost for doing business for both businesses and cities. I am NOT going to live in a city where parking is a hassle. Housing values will go down as people flee the city so businesses will have less sales and the city will lose tax revenue. Historically, people have had free parking. It is as American as Apple Pie and the Right to Bear Arms, which Im sure Shoup would go after next. Actually maybe Shoup DOES know ppl will flee cities for suburbs and he is paid by suburban developers to hasten the diaspora or paid by developers to free up more city land for development.

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Thomas wrote:

He also fails to note that land saved from parking would not be green; It would be used for more construction further turning cities into canyons.

More density is a good thing. Cities can be both built-up and green, as evidenced by most great cities.

More density means destinations are closer together and it becomes practical to walk, cycle and take transit.

Shoup also fails to realize that consumers will eschew downtowns for strip malls and that parking is the cost for doing business for both businesses and cities.

Really? Someone needs to communicate this to the city of New York, which has one of the highest median incomes in the United States but only a 30% rate of car ownership.

Housing values will go down as people flee the city so businesses will have less sales and the city will lose tax revenue.

The evidence runs directly counter to your claim. Cities with the most "free" parking have the most economically depressed downtowns. Within Toronto, for example, the most popular urban neighbourhoods are those with the least parking. Some areas, like King-Spadina, have no parking requirements whatsoever and are absolutely booming with new development.

Historically, people have had free parking.

Historically, cities that have been the most dedicated to "free" parking have had the most disinvested, economically depressed downtown cores, and cities that have mostly ignored parking have had the richest, most developed, most valuable downtown cores.

It is as American as Apple Pie

Empty rhetoric. "Free" parking is income redistribution, using taxpayer revenues to spread the wealth around by subsidizing the cost of operating a vehicle. (Quick, someone alert the McCain campaign.)

There's nothing intrinsically "American" about it except insofar as it is "American" for the government to collect tax money form everyone and use it to subsidize the affluent.

and the Right to Bear Arms, which Im sure Shoup would go after next

Because nothing says 'left-wing moonbat' like advocating deregulation and free market forces in civic governance...?

In summary: your argument rests entirely on assumptions about human behaviour that are contradicted by the evidence, which is abundant and robust.

Seriously, I urge you to read the book (if you don't want to shell out for it, borrow it from the library) and evaluate it directly.

I think you will be surprised at how well-researched, well-argued and compelling an argument he makes.

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*spam comment deleted by site administrator*

Comment edited by administrator Ryan on 2010-02-23 07:12:28

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